FULL TEXT: Interview with a feminist on Duterte

Earlier this month, INQUIRER.net held a series of interviews with leaders of civil society and the academe based in Davao City. One of them is Irene Santiago, lead convenor of the global peace initiative Women Seriously and a member of a group of women previously nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

During the hour-long interview, Santiago, who is well-known to Duterte and whom he calls “ma’am,” talked about the prospects of peace and development in Mindanao. She also discussed Duterte’s controversial statements about women and media.

Below is the full transcript of the interview:

John Nery, INQUIRER.net Editor in Chief: Today we have a famous Davao NGO leader. Many of you will remember her as the vice presidential running mate of Raul Roco. But her real claim to fame is that among many other achievements, she organized the historic NGO forum on women in 1995 in Beijing. She is a long-time resident of the Davao City. She has been a peace negotiator, has been involved in the peace process since 1997, and also the founder of the Mindanao Commission on Women. Join me in welcoming Irene Santiago.

Irene Santiago: Good to be here.

Nery: Thank you for making time for this. Back from a series of interviews, we want to understand President-elect Duterte more. Maybe we can start with your experience as a resident of Davao City. How has he been as mayor all this 22 to 23 years?

IS: You know what Davao City is like now, right? You can leave your iPhone on the table and nobody will pick it up. It’s a safe and secure kind of place. It wasn’t like this before. I remember in 1995, my family actually left the city because there were 5 killings a day. I mean my children were growing up when my 14-year-old son wasn’t home by 6 o’clock and it got dark. I would be in hysterics. Our children also went to Manila once and said, “Ha! There are no soldiers here!” and I saw this is the way they’re growing up? So this is the transformation that we’ve seen in Davao in 22 years. I’ve always worked in a non-profit sector and it has been very interesting to work with the city and it’s a government that listens. In fact, I was talking with the people that I work with and some of them said it’s really crowd-sourcing. They tend to do a lot of crowd-sourcing. So when you look at the coverage of Duterte and all say that he’s gonna be a–I remember there was a political member of the Embassy, that I will not name, came and said “He’s gonna be another Marcos!” It took me while to think, “Why are they doing this?” And then I said “No, because he violates human rights.” And I said, “You know with Marcos, I feared for my life every second.” I said, “I have never feared for my life for even a bit of a second.” For the past 22 years it has been there. So you know it is necessary to understand his own methods and why he’s doing things as he’s certainly not a dictator because as I said, he listens.

When you listen to him in “Gikan sa Masa, Para sa Masa,” his TV show every week, and you listen to all the cuss words and I go like “Why does he have to do it that way?” You know I asked a friend who works in the city and asked, “Why does he have to do it that way?” and then I realized that he has the psychology of the people. He really knows what the psychology is. He’s almost like the father, you know, “Do this or else.” Just as an example, when the city was moving to having this big trashcans, he came on on Sunday and said, “Heaven, help you! If you steal, heaven help you!” I was looking at him and said, just like a father, you know. “Don’t steal the can!” And I think we’ve never ever lost a trash can in the city. So it’s the same thing: “I’m going to make you eat your cigarette!” That kind of thing. I was also surprised. Why, why does he have to talk that way? It’s probably the only way people understand that you’re not supposed to do it. So during the campaign, Mar Roxas had been talking about being disente—disenteng pananalita, disente kang tao…  Hindi maintindihan ng tao ‘yun oh. I think Duterte has his finger on the pulse part of it is the language. And I think that’s why he’s as good as a government official as he is.

Nery: How much is he his mother’s son? And his mother, Soledad Duterte, […] she was leader of the anti-Marcos NGO, how much is he, his mother’s side?

Santiago: Very much… because Nanay Soleng was very-what really down-trodden; she was always working for justice and fairness—always against oppression, so that’s why she led the Yellow Movement in Davao. And she was very compassionate. So you can imagine Rodrigo Duterte growing up. You can tell by the fact that he was expelled from school. He was a naughty boy. So Nanay Soleng really disciplined him and I think that’s why, you know, he went to her grave after elections and said, “Tabangi ko ma,” “Help me.” I think that what she was to him: straight path. You are going to be this kind of person. And she really tried to discipline him because she was widowed early. His father died and so she was the big figure in his life. Her values, her principles, what she stood for—that’s Rodrigo Duterte.

Kristine Sabillo, INQUIRER.net Chief of Reporters: There are now mixed opinions about the recent issue of cat-calling. And I don’t know if you follow on social media but the debate has exploded and there are a lot of people trying to weigh in on the issue. What is your take on that and how do you think should the public, media, and women look at that incident or how should they understand how Duterte speaks?

Santiago: You know I’m one of the pioneers of the modern women’s movement in this country. So I’m watching this and my take is that he is very much a product of the sexist culture of this country. Patriarchy is alive and well. Although, he is comfortable around women who lead and manage. He is comfortable. But just not his inner circle. And I was coming here today, “Why is he not comfortable with women in his inner circle?” I said because they can’t make the jokes they make. They can’t talk the way they want to talk.

And that is one of the reasons why women are not in this decision-making positions—precisely because of this kind of culture. We still need a lot of work on that. And patriarchy as well as you know is male dominated and centered, male identified, and there’s an obsessive need for control by men. That’s patriarchy. SO it’s alive, very alive and well. So you can say that he is product of that sexist culture. But having said that, when people ask why do you support him? And I say, because of the evidence of his work, what he’s done.

There are things he’s done in Davao City that no other city in this country has done—policies, procedures, benefits to women that you can’t find anywhere else. Two weeks ago, one of our neighbors in the farm was raped and almost killed. Her jaw was broken. The guys smashed her jaw with a big stone. Then I told the gender office that this is what happened and they took over. She has a new jaw, paid for totally by the city because the city has a fund for medical expenses; the guy has been caught and he’s in jail; there’s counselling for her; if she needs a lawyer, there’s a bunch of lawyers waiting, also paid for by the city. So you’re thinking of a city that does the right things. So he is a product of a sexist culture, he needs to work on those language and behavior but he’s done other things, the right things. So he’s a work in progress and I’m willing to work on that. And it’s not like I’m going to live with that—that’s different. I’m willing to work with that.

READ: Feminist on Duterte: I can work with that

Nery: I can understand that the appeal of decades of evidence as we put it but at the same time, you are a journalist and you did your Master’s in Colombia, and at a very young age you became the editor of a newspaper. You know words have consequences. From all the interviews I’ve done this is the most forward-looking perspective I’ve heard that you wanna work with him and you want to work out his own relationship with language especially when it comes to women.

Santiago: But also because I teach a lot. I do a lot of training on gender and that’s what I say: language names our world. For example, when you say human. There’s a word for me, where is that word? Those are the things that we need to work on with him—the meaning of words and most especially, coming from whom you know, from the President. When he was about to run, I was one of those who said “go run already” I then asked myself, “Is it somebody like him, with that kind of language?” “Is that that important to me?” And I think women like Leonor Briones and Judy Taguiwalo and I’m thinking why am I doing this. Because here is a seismic opportunity. I think this is of seismic proportions for this man, he is so bold. His vision for this country is so bold. So for me, I am willing to work with him, with his language, and his behavior, and work with him on his seismic transformation that is now possible because of the kind of bold vision and leadership that he can provide.

Nery: What advice can you give us journalists especially he mentioned distinction between the national media, Manila-based media and local media? He seems to either enjoy playing tricks on the national media or really has feeling of resentments towards Manila-based media. How should we relate to him?

Santiago: Going back now to his being a boy, because I’m trying to understand him, too. Why does he do that? And I say probably it’s because, you probably can’t threaten him. Someone who has been expelled from school probably has been a naughty boy. He was probably threatened all the way when he was growing up and found a way to deal with threats. And the way to deal with threats is to threaten in return. So I said, don’t do that. Don’t threaten him. Probably for journalists, it would probably be the style, the way you ask questions. Remember he said going into his bad words again, “Why would you ask me about my medical records?” I don’t know whether it’s his style or what but I think is one thing to remember. He doesn’t take threats kindly. I mean you ask Mar Roxas. He doesn’t take threats too kindly. So there’s probably a way of reworking, reframing, restyling, the way questions are asked. I am also, having said that, happy to have a chance of having a national conversation. The role of media, the role of women, how do you behave towards women, and all of those; it’s good because transformation starts with consciousness-raising. We change structures by changing consciousness first. For me that is the essence of the promise of Duterte government. I’m giving you a simple definition of structure. There is nothing but a relationship. What is the nature of the relationship? To him it is key, key to him is inequality, justice, fairness, and oppression. That is Nanay Soleng over again but key to him.

So if you want to know what he is doing with the national media, he’s really seeing where is the fulcrum of power now? What is the nature of our relationship? Is it equal or unequal? Who benefits, who suffers? So that to me, that is the lens that we need to use for everything he does. Everything he does is really structural. The transformation is going to be in the relationships. This is the first president from Mindanao. This is the person who is not afraid to threaten, if not to challenge, the major institutions. I teach and just for people to understand what is happening, I say relationships. But in the structures, relationships are shown through institutions. So the institutions are nothing but sets of rules. So who sets those rules? Who are the people who have set these rules? Always, not us, and that is the attraction I think of Rodrigo Duterte. The attraction is that people all of a sudden feeling that “wow, we are powerful. We made him President.” That’s one. Therefore, we are a part of this change. So for me, the fact that these sets of rules are now are being set by people and not by the usual elite, oligarch, etc., that is what I mean by seismic—seismic opportunity.

Sabillo: One of the terms that are probably being used often lately is the concept of an imperial Manila. How do you think is the President elect planning to deal with that? Is it really an issue for him? Do you think that there is really a disconnect because the incoming PCOO head used that term when he was talking to Davao media saying that he wanted to work with Davao media. Do you think this is good as you said a part of national conversation and how do you think would that conversation be able to resolve the issue that divisiveness, for example, in the country?

Santiago: I think we have to put that conversation within the context of the drive towards federalism or else it’s just whining, complaining about something, you know that we’ve complained about for a long time. But I think the discussion on imperial Manila is deeper than just that’s where decisions are made, but really that’s part of the drive towards federalism. So I see it as necessary trigger for the conversation that does not just end there or it’s just whining.

Nery: Is there a red line that, I don’t mean to put you on the spot, for instance his relationship with the media, where do we draw the line – we can understand that he has a different way of  relating to us but we also might feel the need to push or challenge him.

Santiago: When you need to challenge him, you know because that’s the role of media. That’s where creativity comes in I suppose. You cant use the same tools you have been using when you just want to be at this area. As I said if you understand that he will take it slightly then you don’t do that. Maybe say “please help me understand” Mr. President or something like that. Just that kind of rephrasing but certainly I’ve been trained as a journalist there is no way to say stop asking the questions or stop challenging him because he needs to be challenged and I think he likes that. I mean he’s a prosecutor, he likes that. I think he’s at that stage where he still needs to prove who he is, you know, “this is my identity.” When that is set, he is going to be more confident I think. As one of my friends has written, Rodrigo Duterte is an acquired case. He’s like a durian. He’s an acquired case. He’s not love at first sight. So, knowing those things about him I think, as you get to know him better, and he becomes also more confident that you’re not threatening or putting him against the wall, naming him falsely, I think when he becomes confident then I think there will be less irritants in the relationship.

Nery: We spoke earlier about the fact that he (Duterte) has a reputation for long term strategy. I must confess, I’m at a loss to understand what his long term strategy is. At this point, he hasn’t taken his oath as president. And yet, it seems to me, as if he is ready to make enemies rather than to unite the rest of the country behind him. Certainly, more people have voted for him as president, [with] 16 million votes than any other president, with the exception of Marcos in the sham election of 1981. Marcos got 18 million votes at that time. But there were more votes, just for the next two presidential candidates, Roxas and Poe.

Can you hazard against why he seems to not only take offense, but to create offense? What is this guy up to?

Santiago: I think he’s sifting the chaff from the grain. Who are the people I can trust and who are the people I cannot? Not just trust, but also who can do [and] deliver. I think that is classic Rodrigo Duterte. Very classic. You know, why that person? In fact, it’s not over. It’s going to do more. And then he will know – who is false and who is genuine.

Nery: We can start with the hundreds of congressmen shifting party alliances.

Santiago: Those are the false ones. He knows. He’s no fool.

But those of us who follow organizational development rules – you do this, you do that – what is it that Jim Collins said? The right people on the bus, the wrong people off the bus and the right people on the right seat on the bus. Somehow, he does it is different. He’s just all over the place. It’s very different. ‘Yan ‘yong sinsabing mahirap siyang basahin, if you follow 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 because he can go 1, 10, 5, ganoon siya.

Nery: He has certainly done a bold move in inviting members of the National Democratic Front in the cabinet. And yet, in Davao City itself, there are a few signs, graffiti says “CPP, NPA, NDF, no. 1 human rights abuser”. Should I anything into that? What is that about?

Santiago: One of the things about Duterte that he’s on, is his freedom of expression. Dito, you don’t even need to get a permit to rally. Kaya hindi nangyari ang siege sa Davao. Missuari wanted to put up his flag, go ahead put up your flag. Samantalang, doon sa Zamboanga, hindi ka pwedeng mag-put up ng flag. Para sa kanya, sige. If you want to do that, freedom of expression, it’s very important sa kanya. So hindi niya ‘yan i-su-supress. Just because I’m now inviting the members of the Left into my cabinet, hindi pwedeng I’ll just suppress.

Nery: But do you think that’s indicative? That there might be some resistance, even in Davao City?

Santiago: I imagine the heavy conversations. I can imagine the conversations that are going on in the NDF.

Nery: But speaking as the peace negotiator, this is a good sign, right?

Santiago: It’s very good sign. And I have to admit, that is one of the reasons I really urged him to run. Cause he’s one person, I said, “If you can only solve”, sabi ko, ‘yong dalawang insurgencies, NDF and the Moro issue, sabi ko “Ma-solve natin ‘yan, we can really become a prosperous nation.” So I saw that. There were two obstacles. For the MILF, the discussion with the Moro, ang pinaka-obstacle is the Constitution. Anything that has the Philippine Constitution, noon when I was a negotiator, talagang stop na ‘yang discussion na ‘yan, basta may constitution. And here is Rodrigo Duterte saying “I’m open to constitutional amendments.” Big deal, diba? So, that’s one. Another one is with the NDF. So bakit hindi mag-prosper ‘yong release of political prisoners? E sinabi na niya, “I’m willing to release political prisoners.Pwedeng umuwi si Joma Sison.” Pwedeng ganoon. And it caught me off guard na mga four departments will have Cabinet members from the Left. So, ‘yong mga major obstacles, bakit hindi umuusad ‘yong peace, tinanggal nya. So, are you telling me now that these are not big opportunities for peace? Talagang ang laki-laki ng opportunities for peace.

Sabillo: What are the prospects for the Bangsamoro Agreement? It has seemingly taken a back seat with the focus now on the CPP, NPA an NDF. Will it push through as it was envisioned by the Aquino administration? Or will the focus shift on the federalism instead?

Santiago: The context is still the drive towards federalism. But I think that we have to be complacent of the fact that there were two agreements, that one was negotiated for 17 years. Are you telling me that the Moros are going to get the same things as the rest of the country that did not go through any struggle? ‘Yon siguro ang basic question ngayon. And that is fairness. That is being fair. And deeper is also understanding of, ano talaga ang pinaglalaban ng Moro? Pag nakalimutan naman natin kung anong pinaglaban ng Moro, e mali na naman. So, while there is a drive for federalism, we always have to go back to ano talaga ang mga pinaglalaban ng Moro. So, no. I don’t think the President, when he was a candidate, who in every speech talked about the historical injustice, I don’t he’s going to set that aside. That is very much front and center of his program.

Sabillo: Do you think the BBL would prosper in Congress?

Santiago: I think what we need to have is an enabling law. After an agreement, we need an enabling law. Whether that will be the BBL or another or whatever, I think that is going to have to be discussed.

Nery: You’ve been in close touch with Jess Dureza, who is coming back as the Presidential Peace Adviser. How do you see the work of OPPAP going forward?

Santiago: OPPAP has a lot of things to do. But the thing also that this administration has decided on is to work on both peace and development. Hindi pwedeng separate lang ‘yong peace tapos iba ‘yong development. So, Jess Dureza is also taking care of development. So, I think OPPAP has to sit down with MinDA, because it’s the main arm for development, on who takes care of what. My own thinking there is that, MinDA, for example, whatever development they will do, will have to be conflict sensitive. Because those are things that I don’t think have been emphasized a lot. But we’ll just take care of those two (peace and development). So to me, I think OPPAP will probably be more streamlined and really see what is it that we are supposed to do? What’s our real mandate? Maybe we’re doing development when we should be really in peace? I think Pope Paul XI said this: peace is development and development is peace. Well, I don’t think so, even if it is a pope who said that. I think the clearer we are about what peace, peace-building is and what is development. There is some overlap, but it is not the same. It’s not synonymous. I have a very simple definition of peace: peace, peace-building, is the process of increasing connectors and decreasing dividers, so that development can occur. So, if it’s that simple and in fact, very strategic, you know now what you’re going to do: you increase the connectors and decrease the dividers. In development, on the other hand, development is the process of increasing capacities and decreasing vulnerabilities, so that we can lead long happy lives. And I think part of the problem is that we’re not clear – the peace people doing development and the development people not doing any peace. So I think, clarifying who does what and what lens should you do peace and what lens should you also do development. I think that would be something.

Nery: You think Secretary Dureza embraces these two formulas? Understands it?

Santiago: He’s been around a while. He’s done both, in fact. He was chair of MinDA, at the same time, he was presidential adviser. I think there’s a sense now of the cause of the openness of the President, to be able to find ways that will lead to efficiency and effective.

Nery: Should there be more women in the peace process?

Santiago: Should we have more men?

Nery: What would you say to some women interested who might feel confused about the President’s language? What would you say to the women from Mindanao who would like to join the government, but are now hesitating?

Santiago: Hesitate no more. Nothing, in a patriarchal society, has ever been given to us that you would not demand. So, we have to demand. I remember talking to the MILF, because I wanted more women to be involved, to be participating, to have leadership positions in the MILF. And I told myself, how do I convince these men? In the end, it was very easy. I said: do women have different life experiences than men? And it hit home. I didn’t talk about equality [or] rights. From there on, there was no defensiveness. I said: let’s look at the economy. Do women have experiences in the production, consumption and distribution of goods and services? Because that’s the definition of Economics 101. If you’re building a new nation, shouldn’t you have those experiences also when you start creating structures and institutions for your new nation? After that, no more. So, here is what I will say to the President:  And I think he knows that. Because in Davao City, there are very many women in position. Somehow, the issue of having more women in position of leadership has taken a back seat. So, I think, women hesitate no more, demand. You’re no less a “lady”, because you demand. I think, in the coming days there is now a list of women from civil service eligibility that is being submitted to the committee of all the women who are ready for the 6,000 positions that are available.

Nery: About the Davao Death Squad, in a recent survey, it seems that people of Davao tolerated the notion that there are 1,200 lives… but at the same time, the survey captured their perception that the justice system was not working. How should we understand this?

Santiago: I think we could understand that with the framework of power and powerlessness. When people feel powerless to change things, they will take whatever it is that works for them. Because they are powerless to change things, they will accept. In other words, even if it is against your beliefs, you will accept it. That’s why Rodrigo Duterte must be cognizant of that. That now you have given the people a chance to feel that they are powerful, they might not be as forgiving or as accepting of those types of methods. Why would you do that? “Because the justice system is so bad, and I feel so powerless to change things. Okay do this, because I want a safe and secured society.” However, if we have a government that says “Okay, you are starting to feel more powerful, then we can change it the way it should be changed.” There are things you accept because you want to feel safe and secure. That’s probably why you have a kind of ratings that you have. I always look at power and powerlessness and inequality. It structures the nature of inequality and how people behave, as a result of that. So, in a sense, I am influenced by the structure but the structure also influences me

Nery: Going back to the peace talks, what do you think should Duterte do with the MNLF? He offered Missuari. How do you think should he deal with that, especially that there are a lot of factions within the MNLF itself?

Santiago: The MNLF has to be brought in and the various factions have to be brought in because it’s the same Bangsamoro, it’s the same people. There needs to be a lot of consensus building. No more negotiations. It’s consensus-building time. And the fact that you have a president who says [he] wants everything to be inclusive, you know it’s the force of his leadership that will make people talk to one another. I am so sure of that. When you believe in somebody, and you start trusting one another, there are things that you are willing to give and give up. When there is trust. So those are the things that I think are important now: consensus-building and trust-building.

Nery: We did have a peace agreement with MNLF. Do we need another one for the Missuari faction? Or should the new form of the BBL, as required by the Comprehensive Agreement on the Bangsamoro, be expanded to include Missuari’s faction as well other factions?

Santiago: That’s where we need consensus. Probably, the end product is the end product. But the process is of building that consensus is important because you have to build, as I said, you begin with trust. And listening to one and the other. Making sure that you’re listening. Feeling included, I think, is very important. Accepting of everyone else. And that is what Rodrigo Duterte wants. And even the Lumad, the indigenous people. They need to have a voice. And it’s not just the MNLF, it’s also the various tribes that are Islamic and then non-Islamic. To me, that’s what peace-building needs to be, it needs to be a consensus-building. I really don’t like to look at what is the legal framework. That is what peace is like for me.

Sabillo: If you could give one advice, what would you tell the President Rodrigo Duterte?

Santiago: This is going to sound really funny: “Just be yourself.” Because Rodrigo Duterte has a lot of sterling qualities that this country needs. His forthrightness, hid boldness, his commitment to the poor, and to those who don’t have the law on their side. And his fearlessness. That kind of “I’m not afraid.” And that confidence. “I can lose everything. I did not covet this office.” I mean, this is a moment for us. So, I’ll just say, “Just be yourself. We can work on your mouth.” But your heart, we waited for that kind of heart for a long time. Just be yourself and we’re all here to help you. And I think that’s why people have supported him, because they know, that they can support such a man and that man will support them. KS