Palm fronds are not amulets, says bishop

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PALM SUNDAY Priests bless the palm fronds carried by churchgoers in Quiapo, Manila, on Palm Sunday, which marks the beginning of Holy Week. ARNOLD ALMACEN

The blessed palm fronds, or palaspas, are not meant to be used as anting-anting (amulet). Nor are they to be used as feeds for fighting cocks, or to cast a spell on the objects of your love.

Manila Archbishop Luis Antonio Tagle gave this admonition to the Catholic faithful on Palm Sunday, which marked the start of the Holy Week.

“Let the palm fronds be a reminder that Jesus Christ is coming and we must accept Him in our hearts, our homes and in our country,” Tagle said before the start of the 7 a.m. Mass at San Fernando de Dilao Parish Church in Paco, Manila.

In more earthly terms, Palm Sunday augured  for good weather around much of the country, with the weather bureau predicting blue skies, especially over  Metro Manila and southern Luzon.

In his brief remarks before the start of the service, Tagle said he was aware that some people had become superstitious about the palm leaves that were being blessed at the end of Palm Sunday Masses.

The Holy Week commemorates the suffering of Jesus at the hands of the Jews, His crucifixion and His eventual resurrection on the third day, celebrated on Easter Sunday. Palm Sunday, on the other hand, marks Jesus’ triumphant entry to Jerusalem while riding on a donkey, with people waving tree branches as He made His way into the city.

“The palm fronds are not for use as anting-anting. Also don’t use them as feeds for roosters before the start of cockfights … I know some people do that,” Tagle said, speaking in Filipino.

“Don’t also use them for kulam (voodoo) and as charms to entice the objects of affection … That’s not the way to use the palm fronds,” he said.

He hoped that as Catholics waved their palm leaves and had them blessed, they would realize the greater meaning of what they were doing, which was to accept wholeheartedly the Man that God had sent to save the world from sins.

“I hope when we get to our homes, these palm leaves would remind us that we welcome Christ in our hearts, in our homes and in our country,” he said.

In another Mass recently, Tagle had encouraged the faithful to “master the disciplines of dying” during the season of Lent so that they could be reconciled with God and that their relationships with other people be mended.

He said the three ways of “dying” and being reconciled with God could be done through alms-giving, fasting and prayer.

“Let us perfect the art of dying—dying to self—so that new life will come to us. If you do not want and you refuse to die to self, you will never ever experience new life in Christ,” he said.

Weather forecast

In Quezon City, the Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration (Pagasa)  predicted most of the  country would have a fairly good weather in the next five days, no low pressure area being seen to mar the Holy Week observance.

For the past week, moderate to heavy rains caused by the tail end of the cold front had plagued the capital and surrounding provinces.

In its weather advisory, Pagasa said no low pressure area had been sighted in Philippine waters.

However, the eastern seaboard might see downpours in the afternoons and early evenings, owing to the cold front, which generates masses of clouds and strong wind.

The effects of that weather system could be felt in Luzon, where chances of rains and gale are high, Pagasa said.

“Fishing boats and other small seacraft are advised not to venture out into the sea while larger sea vessels are alerted against big waves,” Pagasa said.

Visayas and Mindanao could also see isolated rain showers in the afternoons or evenings due to the easterlies, it said.

Down to earth

Elsewhere in the country, the Lenten message from the Church sounded more down to earth.

Bishops and priests in the Visayas called on President Benigno Aquino III to heed the call of poor Filipinos for him to regulate the price of oil products and basic commodities.

In a Lenten statement, the Visayas Clergy Discernment Group (VCDG) echoed the appeal of Pope Benedict XVI for governments to “safeguard and value the human person, who is the source, the focus and the aim of all economic and social life.”

The VCDG said independent research institutions had reported that oil companies had “overpriced” oil products by as much as 43 percent.

It said the government had also earned P48 billion in revenues annually, or P239.6 billion in the last five years, from the 12-percent value-added tax (VAT) imposed on oil products.

“We thus call on the Aquino administration to manifest that it is indeed concerned with the well-being of the Filipino people by taking steps to alleviate their sufferings, such as by regulating the oil industry, so that oil companies will be stopped from overpricing the price of oil; by removing the VAT on oil; and by instituting price control over basic commodities,” Jaro Auxiliary Bishop Gerardo Alminaza, VCDG head convenor, said in a statement.

The removal or suspension of VAT on oil products is among the measures being pushed by various legislators, transport industry leaders and business groups to alleviate the impact on the people of the continued increase in oil prices. With a report from Nestor P. Burgos Jr., Inquirer Visayas

Originally posted: 7:13 pm | Sunday, April 1st, 2012

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  • tekateka

    really? are Pinoys really this stupid?  : }

    • green_archer09

       You would not believe how some superstitious beliefs have crept in the Filipino psyche.  Call it stupid or naive, these beliefs need to be purged.  It’ll take time but it has to be done.

  • mangtom

    tekateka: that seems to be the inference, isn’t it? Ang isipan ng mga Mitsubishops, sila lang ang marurunong. Sa katutuhanan, magaling silang “sticking their nose in things that are none of their business.”

  • anu12345

     “. . accept wholeheartedly the Man that God had sent to save the world from sins.”

    So we have now sinless Man?

  • Alajero

    …why do cbcp bishops assumes the people are ignoramus…and cannot be trusted with their beliefs and traditions?….
    …someone have to tell the bishops…the people have matured in their understanding and beliefs…and it looks like the good bishops…failing to keep up!

  • http://twitter.com/InfinityEagle Marc Lloyd

    “…Jesus Christ is coming and we must accept Him in our hearts, our homes and in our country,”

    To do that, we first need to repent and get rid of the wooden/ stone/ bronze idols that the majority of the  Roman Catholic Church members love to worship, don’t you think so?

    I am alluding to the first two of ten commandments in the Bible:

    “1.You shall have no other gods before me.
     
     2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
    For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.” (Exodus 20:1-17)

  • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

    In the story, these people who welcome Christ is also the one who crucify Him.  Now, it is worst. They welcome him and then eat him.

    Bishops and Priests are always saying ‘The Spirit of Christ is in us’ but up to now, they are still welcoming Him. Brothers, I thought he is already in you. Who is that Christ you are waiting?

    No, we are just commemorating. Why then you said, ‘let us eat him so that we will be one with him’? Are you just commemorating him or what? Are you really one with him before you eat him or not?

    This world never changes. Hypocrites are too many. They are commemorating a belief – an event that never took place – and they are not aware of it.

    What a waste of time indeed. Seek the truth and you shall find it.

  • tonyoks

    sino pa nga ba nag palala  nitong mga ito kundi sila lang din…

    kung ano-anong milagro at kababalaghang pinagtuturo, para lang ma-uto tayo…

    more fun talaga sa pinas….

  • pedronimo

    Palm fronds are not amulets but they can be used to slap the faces of corruption in our predominanty  Catholic society. Start in the Senate, followed by Congress, and the BOC. There lurk the real devils.

  • UrHONOR

    “The palm fronds are not for use as anting-anting. Also don’t use them as feeds for roosters before the start of cockfights …”
     

    IN words but not in deed, indeed.  The consequence is true and the antecedent is just like the consequence as preached by the Spanish conquistadores.
    >>>He said the three ways of “dying” and being reconciled with God could be done through alms-giving, fasting and prayer.<<<

    MOST especially the SECOND ONE…..LIMOS o ABULOY o ALAY to the excessively and obscenely wealthy church organization on earth.  Other churches are too.

    Bakit ako magpapakamatay in any aspect of my life?  Para que.  Binigyan ako ng buhay sa mundong are' para ipagdiwang ang pagka-buhay na iilang taon man din lamang…hindi para magpakamatay para sa kasaganaan ng buhay ng iba na wala namang ginagawa kundi ang magpa-porma at magubkas ng voca.  Malaking Cathy T. Anne (CTA) yang kaisipan na dapat maghirap ka sa buhay mo para sa kapakanan ng iba upang maligtas ka. Maligtas saan?  Sa pananakot ng simbahan na ang tanging pruweba nito ay purely speculative?  HA!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/OET3KSHZA75AF7RGI7ED35FJQM Bernard

    Any christian group or individual na labas at taliwas sa mga turo at tradisyon ng Roman Catholic church are all considered PROTESTANT.

    Isang grupo lang sila noong 19th century ng pumasok sa Pinas ang mga american missionary kaya lang nagkawatak-watak na rin sila at pagkatapos niyon ay marami ng sumibol na ibat-ibang pangalan ng organisasyon mula pa rin sa ibang bansa subalit ganun pa rin ang layunin ang hindi yakapin ang paniniwalang espiritwal ng Roman Catholic at ang liderato ng Santo Papa.

    Dahil na rin sa kakulangan ng bilang ng mga Pari at ibang manggagawang katoliko napabayaan na rin ang pananampalataya ng ibang katoliko na siyang naging pangunahing dahilan upang sila ay maakay ng ibang sekta.

    Taliwas sa solemnity ng mga tradisyon at pananampalatayang katoliko, ibayong saya at pagkapukaw ng damdamin at pananampalataya ang itinuturo ng mga Protestante.

    Maliban na lamang na madagdagan ang bilang ng Pari, Madre at mga manggagawang katoliko at pagpapatayo ng mga simbahan, patuloy pa ring dadami ang bilang ng mga Protestante…marami ang anihin subalit kokonti ang manggagawa..
     

    • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

      Question: Nasa kamalian ba ang mga protestante? O mali ba ang kanilang mga aral at walang kaligtasan dito?

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        The answer to this question is simple. Yes, they possess fragments of the truth and a lot of lies. On the other hand, the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth. I cannot trust my sould to communities which hold only fragments of truth. I choose to be with the community which has the fullness of truth.

      • Banono

        As I’ve always pointed out in my comments, only the Bible my friend has the fullness of truth, no one and no other else. In its pages resides all the Truth concerning God and what God wants, thus making it the true repository of Truth.
         
        I am not a Roman Catholic basher per se yet Roman Catholicism had been in a steady apostasy as far as the Truth of the Bible is concerned. I said as far as the biblical truth is concerned because somehow the Roman Catholic Church has taken it to themselves to legislate and promulgate their own truth, thus affirming some to be truth and later on abrogating them.
         
        This is not so with the words of God, for God is not yes and no, His words are truth and reliable and will last forever. They are not mutable and will stand the test of time till everything is fulfilled.
         
        Unless you are a committed religionist you will not be able to see the Truth because you have blinded your own eyes with such meaningless devotion. Religion will not save you but a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ will.

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        It is true that everything that the Bible contains is true; but, not all truths are written in the Bible. You must have failed to read St. John who wrote that not everything had been written. And that according to St. Paul we have to hold on to the “traditions”/or teachings in “words and in writing”. He never said “traditions in writing alone.” He was clear in saying “traditions in words AND in writing”. Remember the word AND (this verse alone can refute “sola scriptura”). And you should have read in the Bible that the “pillar and foundation of truth” is the “church” and never the Bible. Nowhere can we find in the Bible a self proclamation of the Holy Book that it has a fullness of truth. Instead, it points to the Church as the “pillar and foundation of truth”. I cannot entrust my soul to your private interpretation of Scriptures. I will entrust my soul to God and to his Church who gave birth to the Bible and therefore the proper authority on its correct interpretation. Surely, the Bible does not mention your name as the its authoritative interpreter and guardian. Instead, the Bible is clear that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and its guradian yesterday, today and forever.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        But not all truths are written in the Bible….

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        That is the Catholic position. Yes, everything contained in the Bible is true; but, not all truths are written in the Bible.

  • Banono

    How I wish Roman Catholics will get rid of these images and some teachings which have greatly deviated from the Truth as revealed in the written words of God – the Bible.
     
    The Truth of the Gospel transcends religions and denominational divisions among professing Christians. In fact excessive religious fervor has done much damage to the spread of the true Gospel. Instead of the hope held out in the Gospel, people only see religion, division and the exploitation done in its name.
     
    The world will be judged by the spoken and written words of the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord said:
     
    “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.” (John 12:48)
     
    That is why I always say that any form of Christianity that is not based on the written words of God – the Bible, is but a Christianity of their own doing wherein they themselves legislate and promulgate what is truth to them.
     
    We need to be reminded of the purpose and use of the Holy Scripture as it is written:
     
    “But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:14-17)
     
    Add to that the following stern warning:
     
    “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!” (Galatians 1:8-9)
     
    Then we will realize that we have to take the words of God seriously if we are to be found worthy in the now fast approaching coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
    God-fearing people read and study the Bible!

    • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

      Okay. Question:

      To whom we must listen now? (Because there are many preachers, teachers, bishops, priest, evangelist, prophets, apostles, even son of god like quiboloy – all of them are using and reading one bible). So, again – to whom we must listen?

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

      Sola Scriptura is NEVER a biblical teaching, much less a Christian teaching. Only fools like Luther believe in the unfounded, ahistorical, irrational, non-biblical, unchristian teaching called “Sola Scriptura”.

      And, the Bible cannot be interpreted outside or separate from the community that produced it, that studied it, that lived and continue to live it – the Catholic Church. Here is a parallelism: Nobody can accurately interpret the meaning of an old love letter of my great, great grandfather to my great, great grandmother other that the members of our family who were taught what the words of my great, great grandfather meant in his letter. Surely, others can read it and interpret it or speculate on it however they want; but, at the end of the day, the family’s interpretation should prevail. The Church and the Bible has this bond that sustains each other. The Church will die without the Bible and the Bible will be a dead book, subject to private and conflicting interpretations, without the Church.

      • Banono

        Chutzpah!

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        God bless!!!

      • Banono

        It is a purely outrageous audacity to say that only the Roman Catholic Church has the authority to interpret the Bible, that they are the one who made it and own it. Yes these are some of the cry of pure religionists within the Roman Catholic Church and it is a bold-faced affront to those who really know the written words of God intimately, not to mention historically. This is a lie of the highest order.
         
        The Bible being the sword of the Holy Spirit whom these religionists within the Roman Catholic church claims to be their very own can easily be shown to be the very sword that will pierce them thru and kill these impostors simply by invoking the Truth which the Bible contains.
         
        This could be the very reason why they tried to stifle the voices of those who speak the words of the Holy Scripture and even ban the very Bible itself. Yet God’s Truth cannot be stopped and the authority of the Bible is plain before everyone who will take the time to peruse its holy pages.
         
        To wit:
         
        “But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:14-17)
         
        “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!” (Galatians 1:8-9)
         
        “ If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.” (1 Timothy 6:3-5)
         
         
        “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:18)
         
        “It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.” (Luke 16:17)
         
        “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.” (John 12:48)
         
        “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 John 4:1)
         
        “The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one shepherd. Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.” (Ecclesiastes 12:11-12)

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        What history are you talking about, history of Mars? Wake up! The Bible did not fall from heaven. Good Catholics like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James wrote the Bible from their own experience and from the memories of the members of the early Church.

        I dare say that the Church, guided by God, produced the Bible and I will not have any difficulty of proving that in history. You can cite as many Bible verses as you can to prove your point and interpret them however you want; but, at the end of the day, it wont stand againts the verifiable, historical truth that the Church produced the Bible, she owns the Bible and, therefore, she alone can interpret it correctly and authoritatively.

        Don’t use the Bible against the Catholic Church. They are not in opposition. You better stop parroting the joke of the protestants of the middle ages. Their jokes are nonsense.

      • Banono

        “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.” (Colossians 2:8)
         
        “Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.” (Matthew 15:6)
         
        “Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”  Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.” (Deuteronomy 30:11-14)
         
        “For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. “ (2 Corinthians 1:13)

    • bayhill

       “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. (Mathew 7:6)

      • Banono

        Thanks for that reminder, sometimes I am also tempted to just stick to that advice but somehow I am torn between sharing and contending for the faith that was delivered to us. Anyway I pray that God will give me the discernment required to faithfully share the Truth of God’s word. God bless!

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        Good. That is better. We will discuss that verse later.

  • Banono

    Brother before I answer your question directly let me tell you first that the church (or shall I say the majority, not all, of Christianity today) as we know it is not what it used to be when Christianity began during the life of the apostles in the first century (though not totally without those false brothers and sisters that secretly crept in to spread false teachings). Back then every true believer of the Gospel is considered a brother and a sister in the Lord Jesus Christ and the only thing that separates them is the geographical distance. Each believer in a certain locality group together where they worship and study the word of God, each mutually encouraging and teaching one another, each at his turn speaks and shares the word of God, no professional group of schooled teachers. This however does not mean that each local group has no leader and some workers designated to perform specific tasks but then a leader is just considered as first among equals, and each worker accorded the respect due them.
     
    Now what transpired thru the centuries is no surprise to those who truly understands the word of God (which is solely by the Holy Spirit). The parables of the Lord Jesus Christ regarding the kingdom of God indeed became very true now that we have the advantage of 20-20 vision looking back two millenniums before us.
     
    The Lord spoke that right at the start, the enemy will sow his evil seeds and it did happen (false brethren, false teachings, false gospel, false writings, etc.). The Lord spoke about the mustard seed that grew and spread itself outwardly covering the garden where the birds of air perched and so it did (Christianity became worldwide starting only from a handful of believers in Jerusalem, so wide and complex that some evil persons – the birds – men in leadership positions are now basking and comfortably resting in its power structure, feeding on the lambs). The Lord spoke of the dragnet (also of the wedding invitation) that caught all kinds of fish but in the end will be sorted out into bad and good and so it will be (now a lot of people are claiming to be Christians yet they will be sorted out). Also the Lord spoke of some parables which are good such as the pearl of great price and the treasure in the ground, which also did and are still happening til the Lord comes back again.
     
    Now to cut the story short, everything that the Lord spoke in the Parables regarding the kingdom of God did happen and reading His letters to the seven churches of Revelation reveals that the Lord recognizes that indeed there will be several groups of Christian believers each with their merits and demerits. But then, this is the catch, while the Lord addresses the different church as a whole yet all boils down to the responsibility of each believer, as it is written in the closing letters to those churches:
     
    “Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who….” (Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26 and similar such things.)
     
    It follows then that while each of us believers in the Lord may belong to this or that group yet each is individually responsible for his own faith, thus making church membership immaterial to becoming save. The Lord Jesus put each of us who professes faith in Him responsible for our own fate and faith, though hands hold hands yet the Lord knows those who really belongs to Him (whose faith He will make sure to see to the end) and will surely punishes the one who sins (Proverbs 16:5). As it is written:
     
    “I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.” (Ephesians 4:1)
     
    Therefore read and study your Bible in a humble and prayerful manner and listen to the teachings that the Holy Spirit speaks to your heart while having fellowship with your fellow believers in your chosen group, knowing that we have the sure word of God written for us as a witness and a guide by which no one is above it who cannot be held accountable to its teachings.

    • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

      You are simply saying, everyone’s teaching will (eventually) become ‘my
      own’ since different people have different interpretation to the scripture and thus,
      every one is responsible to his own faith.

      Is this what you are telling me?

      • Banono

        No that is far from what I am trying to tell you instead the Bible is not that difficult to understand or beyond the grasp of an ordinary literate person. Although I am not against asking somebody whom you know understands the words of God yet you still have to go back to the words of God so that you can confirm whether what they are teaching is indeed written in the Holy Scripture, as in the case of the Bereans wherein the apostle Paul himself was teaching them yet he was not offended instead praises the Bereans for double-checking the Holy Scripture whether what he was teaching was true or not.

        “Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” (Acts 17:11)

        Brother with the exceptions of prophecies, everything in the Bible is so plain to understand for anyone with a believing and humble heart, especially those with regards to good and godly living. The Bible is not written for theologians, scholars, pastors and priests but to everybody who seeks the Truth about God. The Bible even attests to this as in the following verses:

        “Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”  Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.” (Deuteronomy 30:11-14)

        “For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. “ (2 Corinthians 1:13)

        It is by the Holy Spirit that we are able to understand the words of God not by any human agency nor by human wisdom.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        That is precisely my point in my previous post. If everyone will read the scriptures diligently, eventually they will learn something and that something will become their own teaching.

        I wish everyone were reading the scriptures wholeheartedly just like what you are saying and I am not trying to cheapen or degrade anyone’s ability when I inquire,  ‘to whom they should listen’ since we all know it is not by man’s ability, talent or skills that the mystery of God may have known.  The word of God is hidden in mystery and therefore, only God can reveal his word.  But every faithful believer is claiming they have the Spirit of Christ! And thus, they believe whatever they learn from the scripture was from God. None of them declare their teaching comes from their own ability – just a rendition or interpretation or a product of studies and investigation but rather, they are always claiming, it is a revelation from God.

        So, to whom will you listen since you said ‘There are false
        teachers among them?’

  • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

    To Banono and Ryan

    Both of you are Christian (Roman Catholics and Protestants). Both of you are believer of historical Jesus as the Christ and both of you are readers of just one bible. But none of you is listening or even bother to try to listen to one another.

    According to Roman Catholics (and I want Protestants to hear this), they are the one who made the bible. That is a historical fact. Catholics are the one who choose these books among many ‘sacred books’ during that time and compiled it to one book now called ‘The bible’.

    Again, this is another historical fact. They already have their own tradition or belief even before they compile that bible and the parameters they used in choosing which book is included or excluded is actually their own tradition.  These are the reasons why they claim they have the correct and genuine interpretation of the scripture. 

    I hope this is clear to the Protestants because I want to know in what way you become greater than Catholics in interpreting the scriptures.

    Now I want Roman Catholics to hear this. This is a fact too. The Jews are the one who compiled the ‘Torah’ . (The book of the Jews). They owned the book of Moses but they do not believe what Moses accepts to be true as it is written in John 5:45-47

    “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” 

    In the above verse, it is clear the Jews believes and claim that they know what Moses is saying in his book and thus, they put their hope in it but the truth is, they cannot accept it.

    And this is what Protestants are trying to say to Catholics but they are ignoring it. While it is true that the Catholics compiled and owned the bible, it does not necessarily mean Catholics holds its mystery. God reveal his mystery to whom he pleases.

    Therefore, who among you is a true disciple of Christ?

    • Banono

      First of all I am not a protestant, neither do I protest against the Roman Catholic Church but as clearly as what is stated in the Bible so I speak in accordance with 2 Timothy 3:16-17:
       
      “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
       
      Since the Truth of the words of God does not respect whatever group you belong to, so in the same way I quote them affirming whatever is in agreement with it and correcting whatever contravenes its true teachings.
       
      In all my comments I point people back to the written words of God, not to me nor to any group so that the Gospel will not be tainted by any religious biases. Neither do I claim to have known all of it but then the words of God is before everyone who may correct me if I am wrong or affirm me when I explained it correctly. So everything then is to be done according to the Holy Scripture.
       
      As for that question who among the two of us is a true disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is up to the Lord Jesus to tell at the time of His coming when all the saved will be revealed before the eyes of men for the world to see. As it is written:
       
      “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.” (1 Corinthians 4:5)

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

         2 Timothy 3:16-17 is simply saying that everything that had been written and the Church declared as part of the Canon of Scriptures are inspired by God and useful for teaching. This verse DOES NOT SAY THAT EVERYTHING HAD BEEN WRITTEN.

        Divine Revelation is that which the Church received DIRECTLY from the Divine mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, this Divine Revelation had been handed down to us by the Church through Oral and Written Traditions. The BIBLE is what we call WRITTEN TRADITION. The Bible IS Tradition.

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

       Yes, the Jews compiled the OT but they did “not believe”. The Catholic Church believed and continue to believe in Divine Revelation handed down to us through Apostolic Oral and Written traditions. There is no parallelism between the Church and the Jews. Faith is the key word.

      As to your question, Jesus is clear in saying: “I will build my Church and the power of the netherworlds cannot prevail against it.” He also said, “I will be with you until the end of time.” He also sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church – the Catholic Church. With these words from the Lord, you can answer your own question.

  • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

    To Ryan (and all Catholics),

    You did not get my previous post correctly. I do not mean to be rude but before we go to another level of discussion I want you to see what I am trying to tell you.

    I know that rituals, beliefs, sacraments or whatever of Christians (or should I say Catholics even during the days of your early fathers) is different from the Jews since religious belief is evolving. (But it is wrong to consider that Christians are more blessed than that of the Jews since God shows no favoritism.) Nonetheless, I want you to see that the Torah is about Christ too just like your Bible from where, Moses wrote about  Christ  (see John 5:45-46). The Jews, on the other hand, truly believe that they know or understand the book of Moses meaning, they claim knowing who is the Christ of God (since that is the message of the book of Moses). This is the reason why they cannot accept their blindness since they believe to be living in the light of God.

    These things are no different in this present time. Catholics made the bible. They believe knowing the Christ of God and living in the light of God. Jews and Catholics are the same in claiming they know Christ but that is not true. Of course, you will not agree with me thus, I will ask……. 

    Do you (Catholics) really know the Christ of God? If yes, then you should know and seen God too because it is written in John 14:7 ‘ If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

    Now, who among you have seen God (so that you can rightly claim you’re different from the Jews – that you accepted Him while they did not)?

    So, How can you accept the One you do not know? And if you really know Christ, have you ever seen God?

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

       Jews and Catholics are not the same. God did not give an everlasting protection and guidance to the Jews just as Jesus did to the Church. God promised the Jews the coming of the Messiah, who promised to be with the Church forever. See? The difference is clear.

      Yes, our Fathers, i.e. the Apostles and other disciples, saw Jesus; they saw God. Through these good Catholics, the Church saw God. And now, in the Holy Mass we continue to have a face to face encounter with God. Note that the early Church, the Church established by Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church. The Apostles Peter, John, James et al. are all Catholics. The Evangelists and St. Paul are Catholics. They are our Fathers who had a face to face encounter with Jesus; they talked to Jesus; they walked with Jesus; they ate with Jesus. Out Fathers did not just see Jesus; but, they lived with Jesus.

      See, the Catholic Church saw God and continues to see God that is why the Catholic Church knows God to the extent that he reveals himself. Yes, we can know God to the extent that he reveals himself for we cannot fully know God. As St. Augustine once said “si comprehendis, non est Deus” (if we understand him, He is not God).

      Indeed, Jews and Catholics are NOT the same.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        You said’ God reveal himself to Catholics but
        still he is a mystery ‘. What does he reveal then?

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        I don’t have the luxury of space here to deal with all the details to answer your question. Ultimately, we end up with Jesus revealing nothing less than God himself. The truth about God that the Church received had been handed through oral and written traditions. The Bible recorded many but not all of Revelation. The truth about God had also been handed to us in the Liturgies, the creeds etc. All of these God revealed to his Church; yet, admittedly, He cannot be fully understood.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        When I asked you, what does he reveal then? It seems your mind are deluge with many teachings, doctrines, sacraments, liturgies and other spiritual revelation given solely to Catholics, ready to unleash and to share to us.  But, these things are not what I am asking for. I am simply expecting an explanation to the question ‘If God really reveal himself to Catholics, why then up to now you are proclaiming ‘God is a mystery in a form of Holy Trinity’.  Once a mystery is revealed, it is only logical to say that the mystery is now ‘known’. But. it seems your revelation is different because, you are saying, ‘The mystery of God was revealed but it remain a mystery. What kind of revelation is that? It is highly illogical. Hence, I asked, what does he reveal then?

        To the faithful everything he believes is truth to him but, that truth does not necessarily mean from God. It can be from himself triggered by his strong faith and usually he cannot explain it because, he just accepts it in the absence of reasoning.

        Now, if you cannot explain your own conviction even to yourself, how come you become greater than others? (since they are believers too and have faith like yours).

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        At the end of the day we have to accept the fact that God is so great and that he is beyond human comprehension. We can only understand Revelation only to the extend that our minds can understand it. Beyond what we can understand, we leave it as a mystery. God may have the desire to reveal everything to us; but, his revelation is so profound to fathom. It thwarts our rules of logic. This is precisely the reason why St. Augustine said: “si comprehendis, non est deus” (If we understand him, He is not God).

        What did God or Jesus reveal? God himself. Oral and Written Traditions help us understand this Divine Revelation limited our understanding may be.

        For the Catholic Church, everything that the Blessed Apostles handed down are truths. We believe these truths come from the Lord. We cannot invent our own truths. Yes, there are matters that we have to accept by faith, but never a blind faith. It should be a reasonable faith. You can read “Fides et Ratio”.

        The Catholic Church, borrowing your words, is “greater than the others” precisely because Jesus himself established it and the Church had been faithful to the teachings of the Lord and the Apostles. If other happen to believe also what we believe, good for them if they are not merely copycats.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        You really do not get my previous post. I did not say, Catholics are greater than Protestants nor Protestants are greater than Catholics. None of you is greater to one another because both of you are looking at the same Christ. 

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

         Modesty aside, the Catholic Church is greater than protestant communities in all respects. It is the only Church established personally by Christ. It has the fullness of Divine Revelation. It produced the Holy Bible. Through the successors of Peter, it has the key to “bind and to loose.” We may be looking at the same Christ, but, it is only the Catholic Church which Christ built and assured of his perpetual protection and guidance.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        Are you saying  Protestants do not have assurance of salvation? 

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        In as much as they do not have the fullness of truth, YES. But let me be clear: Protestants can be saved. It depends on their faith and love of the Lord. The fragments of truth in protestant communities can lead them to their knowledge of God and can help them attain salvation. Catholics, on the other hand, have the fullness of truth and thus assurance of salvation. But, membership to the Church is not enough to save the soul. At the end of the day, like the rest, it depends on the person’s faith and love of God.

  • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

    To Banono and all non-Catholics,

    We all know it is only by the Spirit of Christ that the mystery of the scriptures will be revealed. 
    But this is my question to all Protestants and non-Catholics.

    How come you become more knowledgeable than Catholics since they are the one who introduce to the world this same Christ, which you now dearly accepted? If they find the truth, wisdom and power of God and gave it to you, how come you become greater than them?

    My point is this. No matter how hard you read your bible, you end up honoring them or insulting yourself because the Christ you received comes from them. if they are wrong, you too are in error because Christ is message of all your doctrines just like them. Fruit and Tree I hope you remember it.

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

      You raise excellent questions that will surely effectively challenge the protestant belief system. You unveil the lack of logic, consistency and historicity of the protestant faith.

    • Banono

      Normally I don’t plunge into historical debate as that could be very fluid as your opponent can easily say, no that is not what really happened, or that is your version of history. Nevertheless on this occasion I would indulge a little.
       
      Your notion of the Roman Catholics being the author and maker of the Bible is simply a despicable bout of ignorance and at best is outrageous, fallacious, and audacious and so on and so forth; at best just a bias religious propaganda. Simply not based on a very objective knowledge of history my friend.
       
      Why they even claim that all the apostles are catholics, when besides the generic meaning of the word catholic being universal, they are no catholic as some Roman Catholics would foolishly claim. In fact the word catholic was not even used by bishops of Rome but initially by Polycarp who if you will diligently research is not even among those you can consider to be Roman Catholics.
       
      To set the record straight what can be considered as Roman Catholic Church is the majority of early Christian believers who worked with the Roman emperor Constanstine, thus if you will notice Roman Catholic Church is first Roman, second Catholic and third Church but not necessarily a Christian one, unless you will talk about the church who was married into the world (the Famous Prostitute in the book of Revelation).
       
      Now did I mention majority? Yes and that means a minority did not participate in that adulterous relationship. This started in the year 300’s, the year 313 and 325 being very significant if you will do your research. That means we can date Roman Catholicism from 325 AD and onward and not earlier.

      Thus to even give the Roman Catholics an advantage I will even refer you to Eusebius of Caesarea whom the Roman Catholics claim to be the Father of Christian History who lived between 263-339 AD. He wrote that right after the first century Christians all over the known world already have a set of books whom they considered to be written by the apostles. Eusebius quoting early Christian historians, some 200 years or so earlier than his time in the person of Tertullian and Irenaeus. And right before the year 300’s the Novatians and the Donatists as they are called by those who later becomes the Roman Catholic Church already separated from the majority (for wide is the road to destruction) of professing Christians.
       
      But there is no need to go on and on as space and time will not allow us, anyway in this age of information you can do such research if you are really sincere in knowing history.
       
      My point is that it is wrong to say that the Roman Catholics made the Bible and with that they can interpret it in whatever way they want and that interpretation is superior to others. In fact you don’t have to interpret the godly instructions of the Bible (except the prophecies), you just have to read and obey them.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        When I said ‘Catholics made the Bible’ . I am not saying that the Catholics ‘wrote’ the scriptures. What I mean is….the Catholics ‘compiled’ the scriptures.

  • Banono

    To Ryan Barcelo:
     
    In your heart of hearts do you honestly believe that any oral teachings of the Lord Jesus, the prophets and the apostles can be transmitted orally faithfully thru a period of 2000 years without considerable deviation or corruption unless they are committed on record by means of pen and ink?
     
    When all we have is the written words of God – the Bible, yet that already stands as a witness against your false teachings and practices .If the written record can be twisted and manipulated by false teachers then how much more an oral transmission?
     
    Yes some Roman Catholics (not all) will glibly quote John 21:25 that says:
     
    “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”
     
    As if the whole thing negates what is clearly quoted in the Bible and that a fallacious oral tradition is there ready to override what was written, are we not being pretentious here?
     
    The Holy Scripture indeed admonishes us that what God have revealed to us is for our own good and what He conceals only belongs to God as it is written:
     
    “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.” (Deuteronomy 29:29)

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

       On question number 1. Well, if you take God out of the picture, the answer would be: NO. But Jesus said to the Church: “I will be with you until the end of time”. In another instance, he said “I will send the Paraclete” and so the Paraclete came and continued to inspire and guide the Church. With God in the picture, the answer to your first question is a resounding YES. Our great martyrs would not dare offer their lives if they will only die for falsehoods.

      On question 2. The Catholic Church had been faithful to the Word as it was handed down to us in “words and in letters.” It is the Protestants who twisted the written Word and ignored the orally transmitted Word. Again, with God in the picture, there is no way that filth can find its way into the doctrine of the Church. The Church enjoys the promise of Divine Protection. Remember this always. Jesus did not create a Church that will only collapse by the dirty works of men. Where is your faith?

      On question 3. The verse does not negate any other teaching of the Bible and neither does it suggest that, with it, Oral Tradition can “override” the Written Tradition. Oral and Written Traditions are the same One Divine Revelation. There is no way that they compete with each other. They are a couple; one cannot stand without the other. The Protestant Community is in disarray and continue to fragment each day precisely because of the 1. Incomplete Revelation that they hold ;2. Separation of the Book from the community that produced it thereby making it a dead book and subject to “creative”, conflicting and unfaithful interpretations (Unfaithful interpretation because such interpretation is based on NOTHING other than the imagination of its reader.); and 3. Lack of faith in the promise of the Lord to be with His Church forever.

      Yes, we should “follow all the words” as it was handed down to us “in words and in letters”.

      Bottom line: Sola Scriptura is never a biblical teaching. It is an invention of Matrin Luther. There is no point of defending it. It will not end up with God but with the pride of man, particularly that of Luther.

  • Hfxwst

    These Bishops are terrible at religious education.  The Philippines continues to be awash in superstition and extremism.  Whether crucifixion, circumcision or palm fronds –  we need better Bishops.

  • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

    To Ryan,

    It is stated in Dei-Verbum the following statement:

    This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy
    Spirit. (5) For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down….

    My question is this:

    Is the tradition and the scripture handled down to Catholics by the Apostles not enough for you to be saved since the above statement cited that there are development and growth in understanding in your Chruch?

    Why then the scripture says otherwise? (and this is what your protestant brothers are trying to say in 2 Tim 3:14-17).

    Again, is the tradition and the scripture handled down by the Apostles not enough for you to be saved? Why then ‘development and growth’ are still needed and necessary?

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

      The Word of God is a “living Word”; it is not dead. It is not frozen in history. Yes, Divine Revelation as it was handed down to us by the Lord is enough. But, it is the nature of this Divine Word to be alive; it develops in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. This development is organic development. Yes, there is growth in understanding of the realities and words of THE SAME TRUTH. Truth doesn’t change. Our understanding of the truth may deepen and widen. Despite of this “develops”, the Truth remains as Truth.

      2 Tim 3:14-17 has nothing to do with the Word being a “living Word”. It merely states that all that have been written are inspired by God, useful for teaching etc. It doesn’t touch the issue of whether this Word is living or not.

      Yes, organic development and growth are necessary for Revelation precisely because it is alive. Development and growth would be unnecessary when the Word ceases to be living.

      Remember that the Word is Jesus himself. St. John said: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without
      him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life…. And the Word became flesh and
      made his dwelling among us.”

      In this passage, we can see the Word to be alive and creative. He is not frozen in history or in eternity. Indeed, He took the flesh be He remained God.

      It is good that you read Dei Verbum. I hope you read the entire document.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        To make it short, this ‘development and growth’ did not
        come from the Apostles but completely from your Church.

        Do I get it right?

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        The Apostles themselves witnessed the “development and growth”. The Word has been alive since the beginning.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        Brother, you do not answer my question.

        Okay I will post some part of your Dei Verbum.
         
        It is stated in Chaper II, Handling On Divine Revelation, fourth paragraph:

        ——————————–
        This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. (5) For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts (see Luke, 2:19, 51) through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through Episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her.
        ————————-
        From the above statement, it is clear that this ‘development and growth’…happens through the contemplation and study made by believers..

        Thus, I said this ‘development and growth’ did not come from the tradition (oral) and scripture (written) given by the Apostles to Catholics. It comes solely from your Church.

        Again, I asked….

        Am I correct?

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

         You cannot separate the Apostles from the Church. They are part of the Church; they are part of the “believers” referred to in Dei Verbum; they are our Fathers. Right from the beginning, Revelation grew and developed. The Apostles, the believers, contemplated and studied the Word and they themselves witnessed “growth and development” of the Word. Scripture (the written tradition) recorded some REvelations in certain moments of its “growth and development”. Though these recorded Revelations are in some sense “fixed”, these continue to grow and develop in the context of the living community (the Church) which continues to contemplate and study them.

        The growth and development of Revelation has been happening in the Catholic Church from the time of the Apostles to the present.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        Your stubbornness is very obvious. How come you learn to insist such kind of ‘idea’ that the Apostles were present (or took part) when this ‘development and growth’ was introduced or formed ?

        Why your church call it ‘growth and development’ to the given tradition by the Apostles if in fact they are included in deliberations, studies and contemplation?

        Are true Disciples of Christ posses a talent like yours? I don’t think so. We are in social networking my friend so please be honest because you are lying when you said ‘they are part of the believers referred to in Dei Verbum’.

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        A to Q1: Development and growth is not introduced or imposed by the Church on Revelation or on Tradition. Development and growth is part of the nature of Revelation being a Living Revelation.

        A to Q2: St. Paul, an Apostle, wrote a lot of his reflections on the teachings of Christ. He contemplated and studied the the words of the Lord and he recorded them. He participated in the Church’s contemplation and study on the words of the Master. Please be informed that the starting point of “growth and development” is not the words coming from the Apostles but the Words uttered by Christ himself. Jesus’ words grew and developed at the moment it had been handed to the Apostles.

        A to Q3: I don’t understand what talent you are talking about. I am not lying in saying that the Apostles are are part of the “believers” referred to in Dei Verbum. In fact the model of the believers being referred to by the cited biblical passage (see Luke, 2:19, 51) is no less than Mary, the Mother of the Lord. See, Mary is referred to as “believer”. If she is so, why not the Apostles of the Lord? My friend, please be informed that all Catholics from Peter and the Apostles down to present day Catholics are referred as “believers” in Catholic documents.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        please follow me at the above post.

  • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

    To Ryan,

    We are not in the discussion whether Mary and all Apostles or whoever are believers or Catholics or whatever. Neither I am now questioning whether this ‘growth and development’ is a revelation or not . These things are not (yet) our point of discussion. Our topic is this ‘growth and development’ as mentioned in your Dei Verbum.

    Anyway, it seems you are trying to tell me that this ‘growth and development’ started immediately after Jesus preached or whatever he said to his believers (all believers you mentioned like Mary, Peter and others including Apostle Paul).

    I want to know if we are at the same page here thus, I will ask you….
    Do I get it right?

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

       Growth and development is in the nature of the living Divine Revelation. You are right that “‘growth and development’ started immediately after Jesus preached or whatever he said to his believers”.

  • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

    To Ryan and all Catholics,

    I think you are too busy celebrating whatever ‘growth and development’ or ‘new found revelations’ after the traditions (oral or written) was given by the Apostles and their successors ‘the apostles’ to your Church. Nevertheless, I will post whatever teaching your Church is offering to the world so that we can study them – to learn or criticize them –so that, you Catholics in return will be informed. This is what your Church teaches regarding this issue as I understood it.

    In the history of humanity, from the very beginning of man’s generation, God ‘make known of himself’ thru revelations by the power of Holy Spirit that is in them. Now, these ‘revelations’ is the one you called ‘traditions’ (oral or written) given by all witnesses and the prophets in the old testament and all witnesses of the new testament like Mary including Jesus Christ himself and all his Apostles (like Peter, John and others) and their successors – the apostles like the writers of the four gospels (i.e. Luke and others).

    To summarize it and I will repeat it again, all of these ‘previous revelations’ are now called traditions (oral and written) handled-down by the Apostles and their successors to your Church. But the ‘whole revelations about God’ or ‘all truths about God’ are not yet revealed to humanity. Thus, it is not hard to understand the statement of your Dei Verbum that the given tradition ‘develop’ because  ‘the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down’ grew. (see your Dei Verbum Chapter II).

    This is the reason why I informed you, this ‘development and growth’ did not come from the tradition (oral or written) given to your Church by the Apostles but rather, this ‘growth and development’ was the new found revelations given by God thru the power of the Holy Spirit to your Church. (This is what I understand to your Dei Verbum).

    Now, in relation to your analysis that this ‘growth and development’ started immediately after Jesus preached, is too far the thought of your Dei Verbum because previous to that paragraph it states ‘
    ————————-
    ‘But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, “handing over” to them “the authority to teach in their own place.”(3) This sacred tradition, therefore, and Sacred Scripture of both the Old and New Testaments are like a mirror in which the pilgrim Church on earth looks at God, from whom she has received everything, until she is brought finally to see Him as He is, face to face (see 1 John 3:2).

    8. And so the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved by an unending succession of preachers until the end of time. Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to fight in defense of the faith handed on once and for all (see Jude 1:3).
    ———————————

    So, from here, it is very clear that there is a tradition given by them to your Church and then, this tradition is the one ‘develop’ because Dei Verbum states further.
    —————-
     ‘This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. (5) For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down’.
    —————

    Now, if what I just said is not what Dei Verbum is trying to tell to the world and your analysis is the correct one because of the reasons you previously stated like the ‘contemplation and studies of Paul and Mary’ are included in this ‘growth and development’ and it started immediately after Jesus preached. Then, what is that ‘tradition’ mentioned in the above paragraph which was handled-down by the Apostles to your Church If all of them are ‘growth and development’.?

    Again, if I will analyze your suggestion that ‘growth and development’ started immediately after Jesus preached, are you now saying that the word of Christ itself is the ‘thing’ that undergo this ‘development’ in your Church? To make it clearer, are you now suggesting that your Church did not keep the words of Jesus Christ because you ‘develop’ it?

    Please make these things clearer because the world is listening. I will wait for your response otherwise, I will call your Dei Verbum – Die Word. (in Pilipino, ‘Patay Ang Salita Ninyo’) Okay?

    If I were you, I will listen to the suggestion of Protestants – grow in the light of the scriptures alone and let God do the rest for your salvation.

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

      I will try to answer your questions in the last four paragraphs.

      Yes, we can say that Tradition means teaching; but properly it means “handing down.” Therefore, tradition is not itself the teaching, it is the process of handing down the teaching. The teaching is actually the Revelation. In each “handing down”, Revelation may grow and develop under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

      Growth and development is “built in” REelation and therefore also in the process of handing down or what we call as Tradition. The Bible itself is a witness to this growth and development of Revelation. You see that the Gospel of St. John is more of a deeper reflection on the life and words of Jesus as compared to the three synoptic gospels. From the time the tree synoptic gospels were written until John wrote his Gospel and Apocalypse, there occurred growth and development of Revelation. AS I have said, growth and development is part of the nature of Revelation being itself alive and not frozen dead in history. This growth and development happened in Tradition since the subject of tradition is the Living Revelation.

      As to your next question, the answer is Yes. REvelation is alive and it has the capacity to grow and develop just like any other living beings. I have been telling this to you in this exchange. However, this growth and development does not change the essence or nature of the subject since this is an organic growth and development. Both of us started as baby “men”. Over the years, since we are alive, we organically grew and developed into mature “men”. We somewhat “changed” but we remain the same “men”. This process is called organic growth and development. Jesus’ Revelation, your so called “thing” is that which grows and develop in the minds of the believers as they are guided by the Holy Spirit.

      YOu are wrong in suggesting that the Church developed the words of Jesus Christ so that as a result what had been developed is completely different from what it was originally. AS I have been telling you, growth and development is part of the nature of Revelation since it is a Living Revelation. Growth and development is NOT something external to REvelation and imposed by the Church on it. The Church has no power whatsoever to impose anything on Divine Revelation lest she will be unfaithful to the Master.

      No. We will never give in to protestant hallucination.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        Let us eat slowly.

        So you are telling me, that the ‘tradition’ given to the Church is not actually the ‘teaching’ because just like you said ‘The teaching is the revelation itself. The tradition is like a power to understand the revelation or teaching. (that is the best I can understand your ‘process’ in the above post). That is the ‘thing’ that was handled-down by all of them to the Church. In short, it is the Holy Spirit that was handled-down.

        Please explain it further to enlighten us if I am wrong.

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        As I have said, Tradition is the act of “handing down” the teaching which is the Revelation. Tradition is not the “power to understand”. No. it is not the power to understand. It is the act of passing the teaching from one faithful to another. 

        You are also wrong in thinking that it is the Holy Spirit that is being handed down. It is, again, Revelation that is being handed down (through oral and written traditions). The Holy Spirit guides the Church in handing down Revelation; the Holy Spirit guides Tradition. The Holy Spirit guides the growth and development of Revelation. 

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        Okay. Tradition ‘is the act of passing the teaching from one faithful to another.’  

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        I have no problem with this formulation. I agree.

        Just the same, I have to remind you that in the Catholic church, tradition may mean the teaching. The meaning actually depends on the usage.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        You said ‘YOu are wrong in suggesting that the Church
        developed the words of Jesus Christ so that as a result what had been developed is completely different from what it was originally’.
        ————-

        But my question is – ‘Are you now suggesting that your Church did not keep
        the words of Jesus Christ because you ‘develop’ it?’

        Okay let us make it clear.

        Did you (The Roman Catholic Church) ‘develop’ the word of Christ or not?

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        No. We did not develop the Word of Christ. The Church did not impose growth and development on Revelation. The Church did not manupulate the Word of God. 

        Revelation, ie. the Word of Christ, grew and developed in the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. As I have been telling you, growth and development are not foreign to Revelation or the Word of Christ. Growth and development are integral to Revelation or the Word of Christ precisely because it is alive. 

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        We will discuss this later. Let us go back to our previous discussion.  

  • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

    To Ryan and all Catholics.

    Okay I want to follow-up our discussion here. It seems this is what you are saying when you said ‘tradition also mean teaching but it is actually mean ‘handling down’ or ‘process of handling down the teaching’. I think this is what you are saying.

    Dei Verbum states:

    ‘But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, “handing over” to them “the authority to teach in their own place.”(3) This sacred tradition,….’

    This ‘authority to teach in their own place’ is the tradition you are referring in our previous discussion.That is the ‘thing’ that was hand-over.

    Do I get it right?

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

      No. Tradition is NOT the ‘authority to teach in their own place’. Tradition is the act or the process or the means of handing down the teaching (ie. Revelation/Word of Christ). 

      Truly, the Apostles “handed over” their authority to teach to their successors – the Bishops. Somebody had to take their place for the perpetuity of the Gospel. This handed over authority is different from Revelation, which the Word of Christ or the teaching. Divine Revelation is handed down in the Church from one generation to another by “words and letters.” In this process of handing down, growth and development occurs under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

      Revelation (or the Word of Christ) is like a plant planted in the fertile soil (the Church). Like a plant it grows and develops. It may differ in some respects as it was when planted but it is the same plant. As I have been telling you, Revelation (ie. Word of Christ) has the potential of organic growth and development. These are part of its nature. These are not imposed by the Church. Revelation naturally and organically grows and develops in the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit. 

      I hope you get it now. 

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        To an ordinary man like me, the meaning of tradition is simply ‘the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation. In this simple definition, it is the custom or belief that has been transmitted from person to person. But it
        seems to you (Catholics), it is different.  You said tradition is the act or the process or the means of handling down the teaching.

        What is that thing handled-down by Apostle to Catholics? Your answer will be ‘tradition’. In short, it is act or process or means that was given to you by Apostles.

        Do I get it now?
         
        Question: How is this ‘act or process or
        means’ hand-over to you by the Apostles?

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        I agree with your definition. Indeed, Tradition is the “transmission of belief” or the transmission (to pass) of Divine Revelation from one generation to another. Im sorry if i confused you. My intent was to simplify this concept to make it easily understandable.

        Again, that “thing” that is being transmitted from one generation to another in the Catholic Church is the living Divine Revelation or the Word of Christ.

        Do you get it now?

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        Yes, I think so. I will post it above.

        BTW: I posted a new topic in Phatmass (I was inactive in that forum for more than , maybe,  2 or 3 years) regarding this issue. I tried to ask for your permission. I thought I already posted my request but I found out it is still in ‘pending request’ status on this site.

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        Go ahead.

  • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

    Ryan,
     
    It is written in Dei Verbum the following statement:
    ———
    ‘Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful
    to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth
    or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to fight in defense of the faith handed on once and for all….’
     —————-
    How do you define the word ‘traditions’ in above phase? If not…..

    (This is the other definition of tradition from dictionary)
    a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures, in particular:
    • (in Christianity) doctrine not explicit in the Bible but held to derive from the oral teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.

    Are we together here?

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

      In this case, “traditions” mean teachings.

      As I have said in my previous post, Tradition may mean the teaching. But, properly, if you will allow me to borrow your definition, Tradition is the “trasmission of belief”.

      Well catechized Catholics will not encounter any difficulty in determining when Tradition means a teaching or a process of transmitting REvelation. We can easily determine that in Church documents.

      Again, Tradition may mean either the teaching or the proccess of transmitting Revelation. It depends on the usuage of the term.

      BTW, your dictionary definition of Tradition is defective as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. Remember that the Bible IS actually Tradition. The Bible is the Written Tradition of Divine Revelation. In the Catholic Church you cannot say: Traditions are doctrines not explicit in the Bible but are believed to have divine authority as it came from the oral teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. This statement is defective. It tries to suggest that the Tradition refers exclusively to oral tradition and that the Bible is not tradition.

      At this point, apparently, we still do not agree.

      • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

        Therefore, the meaning of ‘tradition’ in this paragraph of is oral and written teachings (traditions). Do I get it right?

      • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

        Yes. You are right this time.

  • Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino

    Ryan,

    To me this is what you are trying to say from the very beginning.

    The tradition (Oral and Written) that was given to you (Roman Catholic Church) by the Apostles is the ‘Word of Christ’. Now, this ‘Word of Christ’ is living and therefore it is growing although it does not necessary mean there is any addition to the former given tradition (Word of Christ) because it is the nature of that ‘Word’ or ‘Tradition’ to grow.

    Do I get it?

    • http://profiles.google.com/forestking19 Ryan Barcelo

      Yes. You get it now. But, I prefer to use “Divine Revelation” rather than “Word of Christ” because the former is the phrase used in Dei Verbum.

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